Tuesday, August 31, 2010

The Fallacy Of Believing That Christ Died On The Cross To Appease The Father's Wrath


Matthew 5:43 ¶Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

12 comments:

ψευδἸωάννης said...

Be ye therefore wrathful, even as your Father who is in heaven is wrathful.

(That "which" should be "who." Such atrocious grammar. Ick. Might as well say Mother instead of Father.)

Ray said...

If you can answer Isaiah 53 then I'll believe you.

Surely our sickesses - He bore them,
and our pains - He suffered them....

But He was pierced for our transgressions,
and crushd for our iniquities.

The punishment for our salvation lay upon Him,
and by His wounds, healing came to us.

We all have strayed like sheep
each of us has turned to his own way.

But Yahweh has caused to fall on Him the iniquity of us all.

Lvka said...

Everything that Isaiah wrote is true. Just not in the way you currently seem to understand it.

Lvka said...

At this point, I'm not even asking you to believe me, but simply to believe Christ's words.

ψευδἸωάννης said...

Spot the difference:

Surely our damnation - He bore it,
and our pains - He suffered them....

But He was pierced to punish our transgressions,
and crushed to punish our iniquities.

The punishment of our damnation lay upon Him,
by His wounds, healing came to us.

We all have strayed like sheep
each of us has turned to his own way.

But Yahweh has caused his wrath to fall on Him because of the iniquity of us all.

Nickidewbear said...

psefdIoannis and Ray, I don't think that Lvka is saved.

Lvka said...

I'm not. Who ever said I was?

Ikonophile said...

Ah the trolls are coming.

Not saved Lvka? Neither am I. At least I'm in good company. :D

Lvka said...

The man suffers from cerebral palsy, so I would kindly suggest you choose your labels & epithets more carefully next time..

Besides, he meant well: I froze like a bloody statue when my religion professor told me that `we Orthodox don't believe in original sin!`: I thought he either went mad or was... "extremely uninformed" (to put it mildly). I was so shocked that I forgot the incident: my brain couldn't process it. Whole years had to pass by before passages like the one above, and others, like the Parable of the Prodigal Son, made me see an internal inconsistency or incoherency in the universally-held & undisputed Christian teaching about God's obligation to not simply-forgive sinners, but demand "justice": it was SO simple: human justice was NOT God's justice: Christ makes it painstakingly clear in His Sermon on the Mount -- doesn't He? Anyway.. by then I've already forgotten my professor's words, and was not aware of an alternative either: this was something that ALL Christians, regardless of denomination, agreed upon: so I HAD to be wrong -- but WHERE did I go wrong? [Unlike heretics, I don't put my own reasonings above the Chruch]. I've listened to countless sermons touching upon those two Gospel-passages,... yet strangely NONE seemed to have noticed the contradiction with the teaching on the Atonement... I mean, if God were to simply forgive, why did Jesus die on a Cross, or why is there eternal Hell,... right? And since the Bible is clear on Hell and its eternal nature, it followed that God could not JUST simply forgive... right? So WHERE did I go wrong? I couldn't for the life of me figure it out: Christ says His Father loves those who hate Him and does good to those that wrong Him: and we're invited to immitate Him... and this does NOT include redirecting our wrath or anger towards innocent bystanders... yet it should... because THAT's what the Atonement was about... or so I thought. -- So let me just say this, in conclusion, that I understand PERFECTLY well where Nick is coming from... more than I should, probably...

David said...

Well, Lvka, you got him, and Ray is seen to be a liar in that he has not yet returned to confess his conversion to Orthodoxy. :)

Ikonophile said...

Uh, okay, I guess.

I've noticed that these sorts of comments are deleted promptly at other Orthodox blogs like Father Stephen's for example. They are not meant for conversation or edification or instruction of any sort. Kind of pointless to run around calling people "not saved" and assume the judgment of God.

John

martha said...

Which is the relative pronoun of choice in the King James' version. So it's anachronistic to fault someone's grammar when he or she is quoting from the KJV.

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