Sunday, July 18, 2010

Why the Fathers of Nicaea Were NOT Old Calendarists

Because –if they would've been such– they would've never-ever dared to change the then-existing, traditional Church calendar, by moving the Spring Equinox to a date four days prior. In other words, the currently-so-called Old Calendar was an innovation in its time.


Marlon said...

Then you need another Ecumenical Council to make another change especially about an issue that important. The Fathers made the change in council. Many believe that the Calendar can change. It is the reason why it was changed and the dubious,at best, persons who decided to make the change that is the issue for Old Calendarists. This is similar to the filioque issue at least in this regards. You can't change something accepted conciliarly which will affect the whole Church without another infallible conciliar decree. Unless you actually desire the ensuing chaos...

Lvka said...

The Fathers simply brought the Calendar up to date. If Old Calendarists would've existed in the fourth century, they would've said the SAME thing about Nicaea: EITHER that they could NOT have done it because of pre-existent tradition, OR that "the reason why it was changed and the dubious, at best, persons who decided to make the change [are] the [real/true/genuine -- no pun intended] issue".

The dogmas of faith, however, (to which category the filioque belongs) can't be brought up to date because they are timeless.

Lvka said...

Unless you actually desire the ensuing chaos...

Of course I do! – How dare you even as much as insinuate the contrary!?

(Does the richness and diversity of customs of Orthodox nations puzzle you? Too many alphabets, calendars, tongues, and peoples for you? Too much musical and architectural variety? Become a Catholic then! They all pray in the same Latin language, have the same Gregorian calendar, worship in the same Gregorian chant, and even bow and kneel at precisely the same time, like a Swiss clock!)

Marlon said...


All I'm saying is that the calendar was changed by a Ecumenical Council. To change it again must be decided by the whole Church. We should'nt pick and choose which conciliar decrees we can change in an un-concilar manner.

To say that if Old Calendarists were in the 4th century they would have went into schism if it was decided by all the hierarchs in council is conjecture. Some would have, maybe, but we don't and can't know that. Please, look into the persons who intially proposed the change and why. Please look into who actually attended this council.

Also look into how the Church resolved the Quartodeciman controversy in Council to get the whole Church on the same page as far as the calendar goes. Western saints like the Venerable Bede was also very bothered by the Irish calendar in his time which drifted from the majority practice. The Church has always desired unity in it's calendar and I think it's a good and holy desire to have.

No, I don't dare think you desire the chaos. But there are forces which desire chaos in the Church and I personally think it was a deliberate attempt to make trouble in the Church. However, no calendar should make a schism as the Apostle Paul states in Rom. 14:5-6 and we also have the example of St. Polycarp and Pope Anicetus. All parties did have a desire for unity in the matter.

Please forgive me if I came off like I was accusing you of desiring schism/chaos. That was not my intention. I am very edified by your work on this site. I believe that Orthodoxy is "where the truth lies" and I don't want to be Catholic. But on this issue we should all take off our shoes because the ground on which we're walking is holy.

Lvka said...

But you do understand that that unified calendar was chosen by the Fathers so as to reflect the actual astronomical data of their day, and not according to other pseudo-traditional standards, right?

John said...

Well, almost all the Orthodox churches at one point or another have agreed to the new calendar. Serbia and Constantinople agreed at the synod of 1923 (but Serbia apparently reneged). Cyprus, Alexandria, Antioch, Romania Poland and Bulgaria agreed and started following it. Russia agreed in 1923 also, but then reneged with the whole Soviet upheaval. It's not really so much the fault of the New Calendarists if some churches reneged on what they agreed to do.

Marlon said...

Yes, that is one of many reasons for the establishment of a unified calendar. One of the main ones being unity in the Church's holy feasts and the desire to seperate the Church from certain Jewsih feasts. In my opinion, however, astronomical exactness is not the primary motive for the new calendar change and the Fathers were aware of deficiencies in the Calendar. Not to mention that most of the Orthodox Church (including those in our spiritual center, Mt. Athos) has not seen the need to go with this new calendar. All I'm saying is check into this a little more and proceed cautiously. Again, you guys are puttin' out some great stuff!!





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